Lazyweb bass/guitar players, help.

So over the past year I've been getting back into playing the bass guitar. I used to play the electric bass in Jazz Band in high school, along with the double bass in Orchestra. (The double bass is this honking huge monster.)

I've been fortunate in working in an open source job, which naturally seems to mean that I get to work with a bunch of musicians. I don't know what it is about hackers and music that makes the two "just fit", but I digress....

So anyway, at the end of the last UDS we did this thing called Ubuntu All Stars, where basically we jam for people who have been working all week. The first half was a live band, and it was capped off with Daniel and Luis spinning wax way into the night.

The first "All Stars" was a little rock jam we did during a Canonical All Hands. This was the first time I got to play with Barry Warsaw, Tony Espy, Graham Binns, Bill Filler, Chris Armstrong, Jono Bacon, and Jamshed Kakar (among others). In case you didn't know, Barry Warsaw is not only a well respected Python and mailman hacker, he's also a prolific bass player. Since I drove to Boston for that allhands, I had my 2 basses and gear onhand, which Barry quickly set up for that jam. So, that jam happened ... let's look at some pictures ...

These are pics of Barry on my Ibanez RD500 .... take note of how he rests his thumb on the J pickup.

As it turns out, Graham Binns also(!) has an RD500 ... same thing as Barry, thumb on the J.

Now, I happen to play different ... check these out ....

Ok, so I tend to play really close to the back end of the bass, really close to the bridge. I don't know why I do this, since I mostly learned on the double bass (which doesn't have pickups, just one hunk of wood that suspends the strings above the body) I have no clue where my fingers are supposed to be. So I just put them where they felt comfortable. Obviously I can tell that where you play affects your sound.... this is where I get totally lost....

Help me Bass Players

I've noticed that the closer I play to the neck the deeper the sound is, the closer I play to the bridge, the twangier it is ... this is pretty basic stuff, this is obvious when you first pick up the bass. I've known this for years. My main question is ... how do different pickups affect this sound? In Istanbul at GUADEC I played like this (on purpose):

I couldn't tell a difference, I noticed that Edward Hervey played similarly. Jono plays with a pick, and I've noticed him play right in the middle; nothing against Jono but I've seen many "guitarists who play bass" do this kind of thing. I am unsure if this is on purpose or how just people tend to be.

What brought this whole thing on?

• I've picked up a new set of Rush DVDs, and I noticed that Geddy's Wal has dual humbuckers, and he routinely switches from the neck humbucker to the bridge humbucker during many songs. I was wondering why he would do this, because it sounds the same to me!
• In the 1984 DVD Geddy plays a Steinberger (ugh), and he mostly plays it right inbetween both pickups, I don't notice him shifting around at all.
• On the Rush 30th Anniversary DVD (R30), Geddy plays a Fender signature bass (made just for him) with just one J pickup(!). I don't understand how one goes from a Wal with dual active humbuckers to one J pickup ... explain? I also note that Geddy's sound in the 2000's sounds way less twangy and in your face vs. the older material. Also, he alternates between different sides of the pickup, so he's still kind of switching up, just only on one pickup.
• If you want a real life example, note the playing of his chords on R30 vs. Show of Hands on "Force Ten" - he's playing it totally different, and it sounds totally different.
• I've noticed that Jason Newsted and most of the metal bassists play with a pick nearly right on the bridge, vs. Robert Trujillo with his fingers closer to the neck.
• Roger Waters plays closer to the bridge with a pick, while Pink Floyd seems to pick studio musicians that play with their fingers, closer to the neck.
• To make things more complicated ... it's not just where I play, but how I adjust my volume for each pickup .... argh!
• My guitarist friend Ken Simon explains that if you think of a guitar/bass string as one big wave, that it's obvious that where you "break" the wave that the tone is different. That makes sense to me... I have no idea how this relates to pickups though...

So what are you guys doing for sound? I have this big feeling that I'm over analyzing this need to concentrate on just practicing. Do you guys just pick where to play? What do you guys do about different kinds of pickups? What are you guys doing out there for "best practices"? God I hate sucking so badly, if someone could explain why I suck so bad I would appreciate that as well. :(

EDIT: I know it sounds like I'm nitpicking, but I'd like to know why people play the way they play, it's interesting to me

Comments

[Trey]

I will be watching the comments on this, recently been attempting to play bass and haven't got far, but that's probably all due to not practicing as much as I should

[David Nusinow]

I don't know the answer because I suck at bass far more than you, but you've inspired me to finally get some Rush DVD's, which I've been putting off for far too long.

[TheGzeus]

Personally I prefer rail-type pickups to pole-type, things seem to have a smoother attack and decay, and less 'nasally' tone.
I also (generally) like the neck pickup to be as close to the neck as possible and the bridge as close to the bridge as possible.

Generally, I pluck over the pickup that is being used if I'm going for volume and attack, and over the fingerboard (like a rockabilly player on an upright) at any other time.

I also slap with my fingertips, which is less loud and thinner than the thumb, not sure why.

Now, to over-generalise in regards to pickups:
J: brightest in that the highs extend into the highest frequencies of any of the most common types. Less midrange than most other pickups, deep lows, but the relative lack of low mids can betray your first impression.

P: punchy, lots of mids, not alot of sparkle.

Humbuckers are all over the map. You're generally going to get either a MM type (generally wired in parallel, and you get the classic MM sound) or Bartolini (warm, lots of growl with smooth highs) in the passive realm.
Most actives are of the 'modern' sound caregory, and leave you with somewhat artificially boosted highs and lows, much like the contour control on many amps. I personally prefer passive pickups (I have one bass with active pickups, long story there) with an active preamp.

Best bass I've ever heard is currently avainable anywhere for $299. Squire Deluxe Jazz V.
Hugh neck on the thing, though.

[Tyler]

Hey. I saw this link on identi.ca.

anyway...

This has very little to do with the pickups. The pickups do have a different sound in their own respects, but the twangy sound you are hearing is the tension on the string. Notice how the string is tighter toward the saddle. The same sound applies to the Acoustic guitar and any string instrument. The tighter the string the twangier(less bass) it sounds.

I hope that helps.

Oh, and I also play bass in the same position as you do. I find it more comfortable.

[Tom Trenka]

Hey,

So a buddy of mine over at Dojo put me on to this and asked me to respond, so here goes. The honest truth: it just depends on the sound you're looking for, and the bass you're playing on.

First off, the comment about the Squire Bass...it's not true once you get to a certain point. If you're a hobbyist, it's fine (if you like the Fender configs) but there's a definite difference between a $300 bass, a $1700 bass and a $6000+ bass. Currently my main instrument is a Music Man HH5 Stingray (the dual pickup one) and frankly I haven't played or heard anything like it--and I played it in comparison to American Fender Jazzes and Warwick basses (at the same time).

The music I'm playing right now tends to work a little better with a pick, and I'll play it closer to the bridge. One of the commenters had it right--it has to do with string tension as well as position. I'd recommend it if you're picking.

If you're playing with your fingers, it's a toss up and it really depends on what style you're going for. You can't go by Geddy; his style is pretty unique and there really isn't a lot of players (if any) that can play that way. He is in essence playing in a close to classical guitar style, and it's about as non-standard as it gets. Les Claypool plays similar but his technique lies closer to flamenco than pure classical guitar.

WRT to pickup config, again it's a toss up and what you're looking for. If your thing is Jaco or Marcus Miller, you want the neck pickup (so you get as much of the bass body as possible) with a pretty strong mid/high mid component. If you're looking for Les Claypool, it's all bridge in a PJ configuration, with the mids scooped a bit.

Honestly, it depends on your bass. And (no offense) those Ibanez's suck (not that I'm anti-Ibanez; my favorite bass is a 1991 Ibanez SR880LE fretless and you would be amazed at what you can do with an instrument like that). If you are listening to the dude about the Squire, try out one of the OLP basses (if you're on a serious budget). Much better, same price range.

[TheGZeus]

Trenka, I could not disagree more.
There's often a minimal difference between 299 and 1k. (Well, in this case the difference is huge, but I'll get to that)
Above 2k is all minutia that amounts to assembly programming optimisations. That is to say, things that only matter to someone who ONLY plays bass.
The audience well never hear the difference between an expensive bass and a cheap one. If you're not playing for the audience you're playing with yourself.

I really think you're thinking of a different Squire than the one I played/ordered.

A 299 OLP will be 100% passive, have a random pickup, moderately good bridge, and a lincesed body shape (really the only thing in common with a real MM, which are damned good basses).
The Jazz Deluxe has Duncan-licensed active preamp (sounds the same as the real thing, I installed one in another bass), cort rail-magnet pickups, a high-mass bridge (like a Badass, but with good saddles) and an ebonol fingerboard (I think that's a big reason it sustains for... ever).

I had to stop playing a few times because it sounded so close to what I've always heard in my head (huge fundamental all over the finerboard, but still articulate and responsive to EQ). I kept shaking and getting... gear-horny.

Try to find one in a store near you, the 5-string if you can. Huge neck, but again, I think that's part of the sustain.
I've heard one better B string, and that was on a Walnut Peavey Cirrus. Very differnt tone, though.

[Martin]

Well, I have one J and a piezoelectric pickup on my bass. I switch between them (and between positions of picking) depending on the mood of the song. There are very few rules in music, just feel free to experiment. It's the sound that matters, right?

[Graham]

Martin said:
Well, I have one J and a piezoelectric pickup on my bass. I switch between them (and between positions of picking) depending on the mood of the song. There are very few rules in music, just feel free to experiment. It's the sound that matters, right?

I'm with Martin. Although I'm resting on the J in that photo, it really depends on what song I'm playing.

I only really noticed this the other day. If I'm playing something that's got a low, throbbing, growling bassline then I tend to play from the J. If not, I tend to play nearer to the bridge if the bassline is faster and funkier. So when I'm trying to play RHCP basslines that's where I tend to end up, simply because the sound is brighter and I can move quicker between the strings (sounds odd, but if I play around the J and try to play a fast piece I often find myself getting tangled up in the strings).

If I'm double-stopping, I tend to play with a pick over the bottom of the fretboard, since again it sounds better there.

The different pickups do make a difference to the sound - hell, on the RD500 there are six different combinations of pickup you can choose - but moving my thumb-resting point around allows me to vary the sound without mucking about with the controls, which can be really helpful when moving into the middle eight of a song that has two contrasting bass styles.

[Artem]

It's all really simple. You can see it as 2-stage EQing/filtering. Plucking closer to the neck/bridge excites various frequency components in different proportions (deeper/twangier), and then you apply the frequency response of your pickup that depends of its type (single, split-coil, humbucker) and position (more lows closer to neck, more highs closer to bridge). Also, your attack depends on where you pluck (on a fretless, you can get a really soft attack with a heartful mwah when you pluck on the fretboard).

[Richard]

Jorge, I think you are over-analysing a bit. There's no "wrong" place to put your fingers as long as it's comfortable and you're getting the sounds you want.

If you want to improve your tone, check out the Tech 21 Sansamp stuff:

http://tech21nyc.com/sansamp_intro.html

I use the Bass Driver DI. You can put this in front of the amp or play it direct to mixer or PA. It tunes the frequencies in such an amazing way, giving a rich, but very firm bass, with plenty of definition and no nasal honk. I never play without mine. The only issue I've found is that you have to be careful about turning the treble and presence controls up too high, otherwise you get some hiss.

Geddy Lee is a big fan of the Sansamp stuff too (although he uses the more expensive units). I reckon the Bass Driver DI is one of the easiest, most cost-effective ways of improving your tone.

[Richard]

I may have gone a bit OT, there ^ :-)

I tend to play with fingers, resting my thumb on the neck pickup. However, I also sometimes rest on the bridge pickup, or on the edge of the fretboard (Stanley Clarke used to play like this). This last one is particularly useful for damping the low B on a five string bass, which, for some reason tends to vibrate a bit when I'm not playing it.

Another factor is fingernail length. Since I play fingerstyle acoustic (and electric too, for that matter) I grow the fingernails on my picking hand. The difference when playing bass is huge: no nails results in a very smooth, rounded tone, while long nails give almost as much clunk as using a pick.

[Tom Trenka]

"here's often a minimal difference between 299 and 1k. (Well, in this case the difference is huge, but I'll get to that) Above 2k is all minutia that amounts to assembly programming optimisations. That is to say, things that only matter to someone who ONLY plays bass. The audience well never hear the difference between an expensive bass and a cheap one. If you're not playing for the audience you're playing with yourself."

I used to think the same thing, until I bought this MM HH5. Most of the basses I've been playing on have been Ibanez, average price between $400 and $800. Played the MM, fell in love with it, dropped the $1.7k on it, and now the audience is saying "wow, that bass sounds f*cking awesome, how do I get that tone?".

"I really think you're thinking of a different Squire than the one I played/ordered."

If that's the case, post a link to something like Musicians' Friend. All of the Squire basses I've tried out suck (but are great when you're on a budget).

"A 299 OLP will be 100% passive, have a random pickup, moderately good bridge, and a lincesed body shape (really the only thing in common with a real MM, which are damned good basses)."

Actually, the tone of that passive pickup is remarkably similar to a straight up MM stingray, and it plays an awful lot like a Stingray (I had one, the $200 OLP MM-4, think the model was). It lacked a little bit of the depth of a Stringray but it played awesome (especially once I dialed in the neck).
----
On other things, I'd double Richard's comment on the Sansamp Bass Driver DI. I don't use one myself currently (playing through an Ampeg B2-RE, into a Avatar 4x10 cab) but I've used them in the past and thinking about picking another one up ;)

[mudfly]

Hey man, most people have summed it up nicely here. I just want to throw Geezer Butler out there because I didn't notice him mentioned yet. He has a very bouncy round tone on the early Sabbath records. He gets this by playing way up the strings just below and sometimes over top of the fretboard. He also rests his thumb right at the bottom of the neck. This is where I tend to play quite often as well, but not because I am trying to emulate Geezer's sound, but more because of comfort and the tone I get through my gear. When I play at the neck pickup I tend to tap and have the string slap the magnet on my pickup and I get a clicking sound. Also when I play at the bridge pickup the sound is a little too thin for my tastes.

Scott Reeder tends to play in this area too, if you aren't familiar with Kyuss, I highly suggest you check them out and pay attention to Scott, simply amazing bass player.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkN1bBVz9Fw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcY3UF6_IaM

It really does depend on the style of music you play as well, heavy fat huge bass doesn't go over so well in jazz where you want your sound to be tight and fast and not muddy, where when you play sludge, you don't want to have a nasily thin or slappy tone.

Gear also has a big to do with your tone, if you want good sounding fat bass, please don't use solid state gear. You can use a Sansamp to help, but it does NOT sound nearly the same as some old Bassman, SVT, or Sunn heads. I used to play solid state simply because I didn't have the money for Tube, but now that I have Tube amps, I will never return to Solid State.

[Mackenzie]

If I remember correctly from working in a guitar store, humbuckers will generally get you a warmer sound.

Personally, I play with my thumb on the front pickup. I like to be closer to the neck for easier slapping. I never play with a pick, but picking makes the sound start off harsher, I suppose. It's hard to explain, but it's like the difference between tonging a note and not tonging a note on flute. Say "sss" and "tss" and hear the difference at the start? That sort of harsh sound from the t? That's what you get when you tongue on flute (it's how you usually start notes, but you don't do it when umm....the flute version of sliding). Think of that t as being at the start of your bass note. That's what happens if you use a pick. You can mimic it on fingers with your nails. Fingers, unlike a pick, though can do softer notes. Felt picks are meant to mimic this. I have long nails, so I can very easily do the harsh sounds. I've always made sure to pick by rubbing the part of my finger after the last knuckle against the string, instead of using the very ends of my fingers, in order to keep the round tone.

Which kind of pickups I have isn't something I worried about when I bought my bass. I had a P-style bass before, and my affinity for J basses comes from the more-tapered neck profile (it's a bit narrower near the headstock). My favourite bass is a Fender '75 Ash Jazz bass reproduction on the wall of the guitar store where I worked. Being not rich, however, I have a Dean Edge 4 instead. I think it has a maple body, so it's not nearly as warm of a sound as that ash bass.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, I remember what it is about humbuckers now. Disregard what I said before. Humbuckers are better with distortion than single coils are. Humbuckers won't get as crackly when you distort them. Though distorting a bass is a bit odd. Could just be my music tastes when it comes to bass though...never heard distortion on jazz or funk.

[Paul]

I anchor my thumb on the neck pickup of my Yamaha 5 string. This helps you pluck the right string when string skipping. If I'm picking, I tend to rest my palm on the bridge and go for a Yes - Roundabout kinda tone.

As has already been said, you accentuate the higher harmonics closer to the bridge, and lower/fewer harmonics closer to the middle of the string. Pickups do exactly the same, and the combination of the two provide the overall sound. If you like plucking near the bridge, you'll rely on using the neck pickup (and rolling of the trebles?) for a smoother, warmer sound. The opposite allpies for neck players like me.

Experiment and see what you like!

[Robert Hart]

Interesting discussion.

I always rested my thumb on the E string. This was to stop that string from vibrating in sympathy when playing higher strings. I also played closer to the bridge for 2 reasons: 1. the cheap planks that I played sounded better that way, and 2. my style was more rhythmic the melodic, so the punchiness of playing close to the bridge fit. My dad who played smooth melodic jazz had his thumb resting on the fingerboard.

I also noticed your left hand. I can see the classical training in the nice claw shape in the hand, and thumb behind the 2nd finger. I used to play cello and play bass in exactly the same way. I personally found my fingering more fluent that way.

Robert

[Adam Sweet]

Umm, looks like I came late to this one...

Myself, I don't know a great deal about the technical side of how and why, I've always gone for sound, feel and impact without intellectualizing. I'm a pick player and yes I learned 6 string guitar first.

I play a Fender Jazz and a Fender Precision, I prefer the feel of a Jazz but the sound of the Precision. Being English, my influences are almost completely British so the sound I look for might not translate to your own requirements too well, but you asked so I'll tell you.

As I use a pick and I'm into a strong, warm, smooth, heavy (though not modern rock) sound, I tend to play over the split pickup on the Precision or the neck pickup on the Jazz, it sounds warmer and has more attack. I play pretty hard, I'm not a jazz player at all. It's not a conscious thing, I just like the way it sounds. I was into bands like The Clash, The Who and The Sundays, so I like quite a loud, warm, round tone with some mellowness when I play softer. I don't like too much top, I don't want it to rasp, buzz or slap when I play high, but I like it to sing clearly when I get up there.

So, that's me. Like I say, I don't know how that relates to how you play or how you want to sound, but that's what does it for me.

[craig]

Slap bass is not hard as hard as some people may think. You just have to keep with it and you will get it. Flea and Victor Wooten are exellent bassists for slap bass.

[Slap bass]

Wow! Slap bass has really come very popular, even guitarist learn slap guitar, or what ever it is called.